Practical Ideas for Growth Podcast

00:00:31 TY HENDRICKSON:

I am so excited to get this conversation started. I've known you for a while now and I've gotten to see just how impactful what you do at your firm is and you know it's something that a lot of people see in this industry. They see the success they see how well people like you do and. How good you? Are at bringing in business and think, Oh my God, it just it's probably natural for him. He's been doing this since day one. It comes so easy. I'll never be able to be bill never be able to be bill. And it's scary and that's, you know, where some of these fears come in and intimidation. And it's hard to see how to go from. Start to bill. And so I'm excited to kind of hear your perspective on this and how you got started and you know make this a little more relatable for everyone and kind of take this. Scary out of it and let people know they're not. In this alone so. I'll jump in it with the $1,000,000 question. So Bill, what is or was your biggest fear when it comes to sell?

00:01:33 BILL COOPER:

Well, well, it's funny just sitting here listening. To you introduce me. Like everything you're saying still sounds ridiculous to me. That that, that's how you perceive. Like who I am and what I. Do I mean I? Think you know everybody's biggest fear is? Is that you can't do it that. Oh my God, how do you get from, you know? $50,000 worth of business. 2,000,000 one million, $3,000,000. Worth of business? There's no way you can. Close it and. And like the sales cycle, I always believe you know from an accounting world, it's not like I have this product and somebody has to have it. So I'm going to. Close them in a day or two. Days or a week. You know, it's all about the relationships you create and then eventually. Like wow, he actually knows what he's talking about. Maybe I should. I should look and. Talk to him so. I think when you ask about a fear for someone that is responsible for business development, how could it not be that you're not gonna be able to do it or that it's gonna stop or that it's gonna dry up? I feel like I've had a lot of success, you know, recently and over the years and but if you ask me right now, it's like, oh, boy, where's the? Next one gonna come. Like, I don't really know and. And so still I think that fear. Stays with you. Throughout your career, or if it doesn't, then. You know you're different than me.

00:02:49 TY HENDRICKSON:

I love that and I think I think everybody can relate to that and anybody that says, oh, it goes away and it just starts flowing naturally and it's easy once you get. You know, there's never that, that fear that goes away of where's the next thing coming from? Am I doing enough? Am I doing the right things that type? Of thing, so you know. I love this and. We're going to dig into it. But let me take a step back. And why don't you tell us a little bit more about what you do at the firm and your background and kind of how you got to where you are now?

00:03:20 BILL COOPER:

Yeah, I've actually kind of run the gamut in the in the public accounting industry. I started my career, Ernst and young in New York City and at the time, let's be clear, I did it because I thought it was a really fun place to live and for. The social you. Know part of my life post college. But what I didn't realize is it allowed me to create a lot of really good relationships. From some really bright people who all branched off into, you know, kind of different worlds and different businesses and became decision makers and. I had about five years at Ernst and Young and I had about had enough and my family had a an accounting firm back here in Boston. I said, well, you know, let me try that out. So I was a little different in that when we. Come back and you work for a firm or your. Last name is the name. Of the firm, we'll kind of just. Assume you're a partner. And whether that was really true or not, I don't know. I kind of held myself out, you know that I could call that. And I think that helped in terms of just starting the process of. Of maybe starting to bring in some business. And then I started to have a little bit of success on that front and our firm was small and we needed more resources and we ended up meeting the guys from Walter Shuffain and we really hit it off and they had what I needed, which was resources and I had what they needed, which was the ability to kind of run a. Book a business and be a partner. So we did that merger. In 2011, end of 11 I. Think it was and. It was a great decision. It really kind of teed off my career, I would say, and that was 11 years like my actual if you talk about the book of business that I had. You know, just from me, you know, no transition or whatever. I think it. I think it's grown by about 7 times, you know from you know from that merger which a lot of times in the accounting issue, these mergers don't work and this is. One that's been just. A true success story.

00:05:14 TY HENDRICKSON:

That awesome. And I see you guys now. I didn't know you pre Walter Shuffain, right? And you know, you guys are totally a jailed unit. So I think, you know, I think that was obviously it worked out great. So I know your book of business is we're talking about. It is probably a little different than the traditional book of business and we talked about this before. So, you know, tell me a little bit about how you approached business development and selling and how you built this book of business.

00:05:45 BILL COOPER:

Yeah, one of. The things that I think I was wrong, especially when you know, did this merge of say, 11 years ago, I thought. Wow, I get to be able to learn the tricks of the trade from some guys who have been. Doing it for a long time. Who are, you know, really legit rain makers and stuff. And it turns. Out that, that that had nothing. That really not that I don't get a. Lot out of, you know, being around my partners and your. Acting stuff, but. We all have. Different strategies in terms of how to bring in business. You know, we have, we. Have one partner who just retired. Where he just knew every lawyer. In the in. The state and. That was it. Like that was how he got his business and he was known as a really smart guy and. And that's how it works. You know another one of our partners is a great golfer. And it just shows up. At the golf. Course and you know, I guess if you play, if you're a great golfer, you must be great at accounting. For me, it was all about my social network and like I said, when I when I worked in New York, I met a lot of people. And I think I. Did a good job of staying in touch and. I think having social media and. And you know, even cell phones, you know, all that stuff really allows you to stay in touch. But I think I did a good job on that front. And then just using my social network, which just happened to be and maybe it wasn't just happenstance like I think. I've done a good job of putting myself around the right people, which led to, you know, a lot of business, which is maybe unusual in the accounting world. You always hear that. Oh, I don't want to mix my personal life with business. I just didn't know. Any other way to do it? Yeah, to me. To go sit at like these networking meetings and or committees and all this stuff. I tried all of it and it just didn't work for me. So I just kind of really focused on my network and made sure that I was staying in touch with people. They knew what I was doing and you know, conversations will always lead to what's going on in their world and their businesses. And that's kind of how I've grown. You know, my book of business.

00:07:45 TY HENDRICKSON:

I love that because I think you get the. Nail on the head with everybody does. And you thought you were gonna come into this and they were gonna give you all these secrets to success. They're gonna get the keys to the Kingdom, and you're like, later my struggles, just like me. And we all do it different.

00:07:59 BILL COOPER:

And not to mention like when. We did the merger. The expectation was I was coming in to bring in business. Oh my God. Like do that. All these guys will help me. I mean, not that they wouldn't help me. It's just they had their yeah. And and I wasn't following them. You know, that wasn't, you know, I didn't really fit those molds. So you know. I'm glad it worked, but it was definitely different.

00:08:25 TY HENDRICKSON:

Yeah, I think you know, you have to figure out what works for you. It it's not something that it's really hard. We teach sales, we teach business development and everyone's like, So what do I do? Just tell me and I'll do it. It's not that easy. What do you know? What do you do? Well, what do you like to do? Who do you know? How do we leverage it? Where do you want to be, you know. There's a lot that you kind of have to start with before you can even really do this and and how important is it, do you think, to figure out where you wanna be? Cause I know you've told me multiple times. I had no clue. This is what my life was gonna be. So how do you reconcile that?

00:09:02 BILL COOPER:

Well, I think one of the things for me is and and I think what we do in the accounting industry is what we're terrible at as an industry is we just don't we never explain to people what you can have in this business in, in, in this world. I don't know why we're so bad at it. But whoever the leaders are like, maybe shame on me for not. Getting more involved in me. Say hey like. You know, when you're young in this business? All you think. About is ohh you gotta work hours and. And it's a grind and this and that. What they don't tell you is that if you, if you really can be successful in this business, not only can you do great work with really rewarding relationships with all of your clients and like you see their success and they they thank you for being a part of achieving the success and and then you know there there's ability to to. Financially, do very well there, there's. All the components of the great business and we don't sell it that way. We sell it that way that we're a bunch of people wearing pocket protectors heading our. Computer doing excel. Spreadsheets and all we do is stare at tax returns, you know, 20. 4-7 and. That that's the piece that I didn't know. At the time that you know, I I could talk like this about the accounting industry and be so positive.

00:10:13 TY HENDRICKSON:

I love that. So it it does, it makes a difference. There's a lot that you have to put in in. The beginning it's hard work and. You don't know something. Yeah, yeah, you gotta. Know something so you know I I that's totally the foundation now. When you start bringing in business development, you start incorporating that. When did you start doing that and when do you recommend others starting to kind of add that into? Your day-to-day.

00:10:39 BILL COOPER:

So I know it's not something you think about early on in your career normally, but the earlier you can even just put it in the back of your mind, the better you know to, you know to just to have it there that it. Boy, I want to be successful in this. But look you. Can be successful in this business and. Not be someone who's proficient in business development, but. Like there's a ceiling to that, right? I mean, you know, if you don't have anything to work on, you could be the best technical person in the world, but you. Have no you have no firm right, so you ultimately need the client. To to show. That your value as a as a technical person is is is that valuable? So, but the earlier you. It's not that you're. Necessarily focused on bringing in the business early on, but. It's just making sure you're staying. In contact with successful. People you know, you know, everyone has their, their social network that you know can be. Some of which you're saying no. That there's never going to be. But then there's other people. You just know that eventually and you just, you know, it's a win win. You stay in touch with people that you been friends. With for a long time and eventually you. Know they trust. You and and our business is really just about establishing the. Because they once they download all of their financial information like they have to trust you. Because you know.

00:11:53 TY HENDRICKSON:

Yeah, it trust is such a big thing in relationships and I think that's one of the biggest things that I hear from people when they're starting in on this is like, well, I went to a bunch of networking events and, you know, I got nothing. And I've spent all this time going to. Meet people and I've. So you know what? Your thought process. On developing those relationships and and how that trust builds and how long that takes.

00:12:20 BILL COOPER:

I mean, it can take a long time. Like I think about. One of my really good clients, we were friends for the better part of 10 years and I don't. We would talk every now and again. About each other's businesses, but nothing really specific. Nothing very that would have led me to believe. And then just one day out of the blue a you know, a question. And he asked me something about his tax return. I'm like, oh, you know, wow, you know, that they really blew that one, you know, was it, you know, a horrible mistake. You got a letter owed like a million. Dollars or something? And it was wrong. It was just dead. Wrong like I think. They forgot to put the cost basis to. All the sales under the return. You know that little and I. Went and said look not. A problem easy. To fix, he's a I don't. Trust my they're not looking. They're focusing on me. I helped him fix it and. He's like, you know what? You need to come in. Like you need. To make a change overall in the family and. The business and everything. And your next thing you know, you know that's small answer that relationship that had been 10 years long has turned into like, you know, one of my favorite clients, you know and. And you know, we do great work together and you know we've been, you know, I do everything. For them and the family, you know, in the business. Since that death.

00:13:29 TY HENDRICKSON:

That that's perfect. And and I think that is a testament to the fact that. You can't necessarily sell people on these services like you send me. It's not a product. I'm not going to sell you on something I need. It's about building trust and letting them kind of come to that conclusion. I always am interested in hearing when we think about it this way. What your definition of selling is cause everybody kind of thinks of it different. So what's your definition?

00:13:59 BILL COOPER:

That's a great question. You know, I don't. Even think I. I don't think I. You know I can't remember the last time. I pushed. To try and get business or whatever. What I do is I intentionally try and maybe have get conversations to a point where, you know, maybe some of my. Competencies can come. But if you could deem that as selling, I guess, I don't know, I could think of 1. Story where I. Was playing golf with just a buddy, you know? Somebody, frankly, we really do better drinking beers than anything else and you. Know we. I purposely left the conversation turn. It was early in the round, so it was a good mind and I purposely let the conversation turn and something that I think would relate. To the PPP loan. You made a comment to me about how. Yeah, no, we don't. We talking to us. Yeah, we I think. We're going to give back the money. So what are you talking about? And I kind of. Went through my analysis of the law and all that. And he goes, Oh my God, he goes, you need to fix this for me. And like, you know, literally from that conversation, we went and did a bunch of work and. And you know. We did the analysis and ended up, you know, a huge, you know, benefit to them. And they ended up keeping the money and. You know, unfortunately. I think it would have led to me. Taking all the all the. It was a big, big, big company and it. Would have led but they. Ended up selling the business. So just because we had pushed the conversation to a certain area, I didn't know that was going to happen. But I did. You know, it wasn't like the conversation. Right there without me having a, you know, my mind. Would be nice to chat this up.

00:15:41 TY HENDRICKSON:

Yeah, I there's so many people I think that are afraid to even bring up what they do or bring up that knowledge or even broach the conversation because they're so afraid of looking pushy. And I think that's like the first hurdle that you have to get over is being able to start talking about what you do. So how do you kind of open that? Conversation with people how do you make it natural?

00:16:06 BILL COOPER:

So your point about not wanting. To feel question is so true and you feel gross like you know when you're doing that. But what's amazing is people are dying to pick your brain. If they think. You're at all. Competent or intelligent? And you know about tax and accounting and all the rules. And look, every day they're talking about new laws. And you know. New accounting treatment. And everything else that's going and you have. A clue in that people are dying to pick your. Brain for free, right? You know so. Yes, you, you. I've learned that that part doesn't phase me anymore. I you know that. Part about talking about like people and what they do or just things that are going on in the world and applying that to their to what they do for a living. I have no issues talking with because. That's not me. Saying you should, you know, move all of your accounting and tax work over to. To Bill Cooper and Walter Chaffin. It's just something to talk about. And sometimes it works. Sometimes that leads to deeper. And they go wow, my, my. My accounts not doing that, you know.

00:17:04 TY HENDRICKSON:

So I want to pick your brain a little bit more even on this. You know, a lot of people say, well, if I tell them the answer or you know, if I let them pick my brain and I give them the information for free, then they're going to take it back to their account. So how do you combat that?

00:17:19 BILL COOPER:

You know what? If that's the case. Their account is going to. Screw up again. You know and it again it's a you if you're looking to close the deal. On one conversation, I think you're in. The wrong place. But if you're willing to, you know. Look, it's to me. It's I always think. Of it, as you know if. I can have a good time and. Like continue the growth of the relationship from a business perspective. Eventually, they're going to want to be with somebody that they fully. Trust. Look, they're. Constantly coming to you. Saying hey, my CPA did it this way. And you say maybe go back to. Him and say this or or whatever. OK, so you gave him the answer to. The test on. That one, but the next test they're going to fail again and eventually going. To want to not do that anymore. Going to say, you know. Can you just do this for me? Can you just do? My return? Or can you? Just take over my business. Can you, you know? And that's literally how it happens. Like it's that. They ask another question and I give you the right. Answer they go. Oh, I knew that was the right answer. You just do it. Literally how it happens.

00:18:25 TY HENDRICKSON:

I almost always and I I am 100% with you. You know, when everyone's like. Well, I don't want to give them the keys to the Kingdom. Well, it's a trust based business, right? And it's hard to build that trust or learn that trust if you don't kind of share a little bit about your knowledge, right.

00:18:41 BILL COOPER:

And you're going to lose sometimes so. Going to give, but if you don't give them the key, something if you give them a half answer or whatever, you're not showing your ability and you're not showing kind of what you offer. And you're not building the level of trust you need to get somebody to say I want to put all of my financial information in front of you. Just you just can't get there, I don't think.

00:19:05 TY HENDRICKSON:

And you know, I like that that you say you're going to lose sometimes, right and. It's probably the hardest thing with selling right is that high and low and that it's the emotional roller coaster. And so how do you knowing you have the fear of, I don't know where the next thing is going to come from and you win some and you lose some. How do you manage that and stay consistent? And kind of weigh the waters.

00:19:30 BILL COOPER:

I mean, look, I can't put it any. Other way? Losing socks. I mean how much you want to put it right? Like, I mean, I think I'm a. Competitive guy by. So why would it be any different in this? You know, environment, I I, I there's certainly times where I said I am the perfect fit for this job and. I have a great lead, a great referral. I get in and like I, you know, I don't take it for granted ever. But like wow, I'm in a. And then it goes. The other way and how is that even possible? I have people saying asking me to do their work and have no. Right to even ask me if this one's perf. Like I think you just it's tough. Like I I don't. I I can't sugarcoat that right there. You just move on and you look to the next opportunity. Like that's one thing I got. There's no sugar coating when you lose in a in a situation where you're, you know, for sure you're the right fit and that you can do a really. Good job for. That client but. It's gonna happen. It's a numbers game, right? You got to, you got to put yourself in front. Of another enough opportunity because you can't win them all.

00:20:34 TY HENDRICKSON:

And, you know, here's the other thing is you're gonna lose them. But you didn't necessarily lose them forever, right? Maybe it was somebody else that influenced it and your champion goes somewhere else. You know, I think that's a hard thing for people to learn when they lose opportunities. You got to keep those relationships up and you gotta stick around because that may come around in a year or two or those people may go somewhere else and you just never really know. Like you said, where the next thing's.

00:20:59 BILL COOPER:

Such a great point, and perhaps not my strength. Like when I lose, I'm not going. But you're right. The right answer is stay on top. But because invariably, if you know you're the. Right guy who they went to may not be. They're very they're looking. Again, if you stay connected and stayed, you know helpful and whatever I think that's something I've looked at myself as doing a way better job. I think you know looking at. I always just focus on the wins, but I think you can learn a lot more. From the losses? And maybe either a you know not make the same mistake or B you know, keep yourself in the game. There's no harm and just checking in and seeing how things are going or finding a reason to talk to somebody or reach out like you don't know what. We engage, we reengaging can generate.

00:21:51 TY HENDRICKSON:

So I I've gotten so many Nuggets. Out of this. But I want to ask another question in terms of like your career progression and how this has impacted. So how do you think embracing, selling and kind of embracing the way you do it and just leveraging your strengths has impacted your career progression and where you are today?

00:22:11 BILL COOPER:

I I think it's. You know, now realizing that I. Mean I think early on in my career, I. I looked at myself as pretty, pretty solid technically and gave myself the option of which way I could go just in case, because again, you have the fear that you're not going to. Sell and so. You need a backup plan. I think that helped in that, especially when I was in a small firm. I got so much exposure to all different areas and had enough knowledge and then. If I had to talk about? The fact that I sit here and talk about I really believe I have a great job. And the fact that I talk like that amazes me. But it's when you're when you're when. You're in the business development role and you're successful at it. There's really nothing you can't. Do with the. Firm, you know and. And you're you do so much less of. The stuff you don't want to do. You know and  You get that credibility because, like, you're so much more. I'm so much more valuable being out and about and doing consulting with my clients, which is another form of kind of, you know, additional business generation or being around my clients to. Hopefully lead to new. Clients than I am, you know, sitting, you know, trying to enter, you know. You know capital gain transactions into a tax. Return. Yeah, so. So you kind of. Get to this point. Where your your day is filled with just client. Action which is the good stuff at our. Job right, you hear? About all these businesses and all the successes of all these people, and they're constantly thanking you and for your involvement. And like, that's just really rewarding, like and. And look, you know, we work for a living and we work because we need to get paid. And you know, it's no secret that if you're the BD. You know, if you're, you know, if you're really good at BD, you know your your ceiling is higher than if you're strictly a technical, you know, person. I don't think that's a secret anywhere, so that. Part of it's good. Too, you know?

00:24:01 TY HENDRICKSON:

Yeah, yeah, I think I think that's awesome. And I think that is a great place to kind of wrap this up. And I know that. That's a ton of motivation, hopefully for a lot of people out there that are just starting this because like you said, we do not do a good job about talking about what it can be and what it looks like in the. End when you're in the heat of it.

00:24:18 BILL COOPER:

100%.

00:24:20 TY HENDRICKSON:

So I want to kind of bring it back together and wrap it up with the the one thing that you wish someone would have told you or maybe they told you, they said, listen when you started on the selling during.

00:24:34 BILL COOPER:

Oh, that's easy. When I came back and I'm. To be completely honest. With you, I came back from Ernst and Young. Really unsure of what I was going to do in my life like. I loved my social life at Ernst. And young, the work I did. I came back to a small farm and that was a big change. I was used to working on these. Each client and I come back. And I was working on some smaller stuff and. Trying to figure out I want to do this for my life and and it was my father. Who said you know? You said, bill, like you have the technical ability. You also have. A personality that client that accountants don't have, you're going to kill it in this business. You just gotta trust it. And be patient. But who's patient, right? And especially I think I'm I wasn't very patient. But people today are less patient. And he's like but. You don't realize what you're going to be able. To do in this business. And I wish I had. Unfortunately, my father passed away. Giving me getting. You know, tell him. Wow, you know. You were right. You told me so you know. That's exactly what happened. You know, I I figured it out. I had, you know, there's some luck along the way, but you kind of make your luck. And and I I closed in some really good clients who are are great today and I. Have these great relationships and. You know, put you in a position to. Really, you know. Have really good control over your life and don't get me wrong, we still. Work hard, have control and and it's so much more focused on your client relationships than it is you know again just sitting, staring at your laptop, you know, banging through tax returns their Excel spreadsheet. So I wish I had given him the credit that he might have been right, but I never got to.

00:26:12 TY HENDRICKSON:

OK, so I did not know that I was going to tear up on this. So I, you know, I think that is amazing and I think having that type of support system plays a huge role in anybody's success, right. So, you know, I think surrounding yourself with support is a huge thing and you know, I'm sure he would absolutely say he was proud of you because you're. You're filling it so I.

00:26:34 BILL COOPER:

My brother does that thing, he. He reported that dad wouldn't be proud so that.

00:26:35 TY HENDRICKSON:

Ohh, good, good, good, good. Good. Well, I really. Appreciate you taking the time. This was a really fun conversation and I know it's going to help a lot of people, so I appreciate you taking the time and I can't wait to see what you do in the future.

00:26:51 BILL COOPER:

Well, it's my. And now you've just terrified me. And where my next client is going to come from. Because I'm on a podcast telling you how. I am with this. I have no idea.

00:27:00 TY HENDRICKSON:

All right. Well, we'll. Keep everybody updated on Bill's next client.

00:27:03 BILL COOPER:

You need to give me. A little bit of time I need to. I need to start building some pipeline again.

00:27:08 TY HENDRICKSON:

Well thank you so much and I. Really appreciate it. Good luck finding that client.

00:27:14 BILL COOPER:

It's great speaking with you.