Practical Ideas for Growth Podcast

00:00:31 TY HENDRICKSON:

I'm so excited. I'm so excited to have you on here, especially because you have a very unique perspective from the marketing standpoint of growing the firm and just really what all it takes for a a firm to get to that next level and bringing new business and you know the whole purpose of this special series. Really is to get rid of that stigma of being afraid to sell or market or really get out there and proactively. Grow a firm. Right. You know, it's not something that we were taught in school as accountants to do, and it's not something that comes natural. So it it takes everybody in the firm. And so I'm excited to to hear more about what you do to help grow the firm and also you know to to help normalize what this looks like and know that. Everybody you know has their own fears and it's not -just something that's always rainbows. And butterflies so. We'll go ahead and get started and I'll ask you the $1,000,000 question. What is it or what was it that was your biggest fear for selling or growing the firm when you started?

00:01:42 Jeremy Shen

Yeah, that that's a good. One you cut right to the for the chase with that Question Time but. That's that's OK. So we're here. For so I will say I think you know looking looking back at my time here. At at specifically why HB? Is when I first during the firm, I was their first marketing director. That they found. There and and I remember within you know, I started at about midway through this the the firm's fiscal year and and you know so that meant I got to prepare towards end of my first year here the the budget going into the. Next year, and I remember going through it, I don't think they really had anyone that took control of of the budget before. And I would say that's my biggest advice to anyone. Starting out is like, you know, if you're in charge of the marketing department, own the budget to 1st free. Tidbit there today. But yeah, I I remember. So I looked at it, I went through and I. This isn't gonna work. Just to support the way people. Spend a lot of time meeting with partners, understand? How they want to grow? And so I remember coming back to the marketing community at the time and was requesting to double the size of the marketing. Budget, which wasn't, which wasn't, you know. The final number I thought was very reasonable. And so I. Remember, you know I wasn't as worried about going to the marketing committee. Which was a. Great group of partners at the time. And the biggest fear was then, you know, that goes to the financial Oversight Committee. And that was the one where it was a little scary. And I remember after it got submitted, I knew what I knew what day and when they were meeting. And so I was just waiting for. I was like, well, let's see. What happens here and? I remember getting the call from. Someone at the front desk. Said hey the FOC. 'S meeting, could you please come down? They'd like to talk to you. And I was like, alright, let's. Do this and it was it was, you know, they asked really good questions. The, the the culture, which is really great. We have a lot of great partners and they're. So, and they're so kind and. They're so patient, especially with people, you know, wanting to try new things and. To listen and to learn. And so I would say that that was probably my biggest fear was was having to go in and, you know, basically say, hey, you guys been underspending by at least half. We need to get in range and. You know and. You know, you know, defending that, preparing to go for that. And I think I got called. In probably three more. Times during the budgeting process that year and then every year. After that I just was used to it. I'll just wait for the call because I was always, you know, pushing, pushing us to get to where we should be and and to match the growth. We wanted to see. And so that was fear. And it was, you know, and. Frankly, it was. It was also, you know, everybody in the. County marketing knows we. Have a pretty long sales cycle. I know we're seeing some. Variations in that today with with you know. Digital marketing taking. Over and buy or have it's changing but. Like traditionally we we have. A pretty long sales. And so it can be pretty. It was pretty scary, you know, knowing I'm asking to make this investment. Hey, you might not see a return on that for 18 months for 24 months. And you know, as as marketers from other industries, you're used to pretty quick return, whether it's quarterly or at least within 12 months. And so accounting is a bit different fees. And so just that you know. It took a while, but you know, once you that, that that was pretty scary having to show, you know, wanting to show ROI quickly. But knowing that it's going, you know it could not you. Might not see in that fiscal year.

00:04:54 TY HENDRICKSON:

I think everybody out there would agree with you that the scariest thing you can. Do is ask a bunch of accountants. For money, because. Not something that they're going to easily give up, so it doesn't. Cause me that they called you in 3-4 times to justify what that was. I can say that because I'm going to count myself. So not I'm a recovering account I. Guess you couldn't say.

00:05:18 Jeremy Shen

I make fun of him anyway. I'm definitely not an accountant and I still make. Fun of them so.

00:05:23 TY HENDRICKSON:

Perfect. So I love that. So tell me a little. Bit more actually this is this is interesting. You know, you said when you first came in. You came in the. Middle of the the year you had to prepare this budget. Where did you come from? Tell me a little bit more about your back story and how you ended. Up at YHB.

00:05:40 Jeremy Shen

So I I I bounced around a little. Bit like all young people do I think when? They first start out in our. And so I came from a I started actually at a large law firm, so we were headquartered in Pittsburgh and. It it was. It was a great firm, learned a whole lot it. Was working with people. All across the country, and it was cool to start something. In New York. And then move it across over to California and then move it to Asia and move it to wherever and it come back and you can turn around a project in, you know 24 hours because it's being worked on. So that that was a great experience. It was really fun. And so I was, I was getting married and and and I was going to move to where my wife was teaching that she to teach her at the time. And I was gonna move to her office. In in DC and work out. Of that one, how did that? Commute one day and I said no. So that was my first rendezvous with professional services and so I left that and then I worked for a manufacturing company doing their their marketing, which worked into doing the marketing and running their outside sales people. So I was doing a lot of traveling with them, doing trade shows across the country and it was fun for a little bit. And then it's it's not fun flying around all the time and doing exhibits and massive halls in Vegas and Orlando and. And so I realized I didn't miss professional services and I missed working with people that were. You know, just operating on a felt like a different level. And so so that's that's when I came back and kind of why I say we found each other kind of thing. Which we found me and I found them and. Been here about seven years.

00:07:16 TY HENDRICKSON:

Happily ever after, huh?

00:07:18 Jeremy Shen

Yeah, for now we'll see, I. Don't know, I get I get fired any minute.

00:07:23 TY HENDRICKSON:

Oh my gosh. So I love kind of this this background that you have that that is more than just an accounting, right? So you've seen this from all different angles and you know when you when you came in? You know, that was the big scary thing. I got to ask for all this money and we may not get that ROI very quickly. So how did? That conversation go and maybe. Help me help help us set expectations with accountants out there that might be just getting into marketing and understand you know what that looks like and and what expectations they realistically should have?

00:07:58 Jeremy Shen

Well, I mean, I think that, well, I should probably like, I don't really sound like make myself sound too like the hero in that story, because I will say, like I asked for it, for it to double it and I didn't get that. So I got told no at the end of that, so it was a significant increase to it. Yeah, but it wasn't double. But you know, like any good negotiator, you're always gonna over ask and hope you end up with the number you actually want it. So I ended up about where I expected. Too, so maybe that's less than one, right is when you're negotiating fees is, you know, bump it a little higher and give yourself room. If things decide to negotiate down, yeah. But but I think for you know, for people starting out, just you gotta go do it. You gotta just you gotta try it and expect. To fail if. You if you're winning at everything, if you're winning all the opportunities, that means you're not pricing it right. Failure is just part of that and be confident in who you are as a person. Be confident in the the services and solutions you offer and be OK with they expect. Expect to fail that you know failure doesn't define who you are doesn't mean you can't do anything. It's OK to fail and I think expecting, you know, trust yourself enough to to try new things, do a good job preparing for it. But no, not everything's. Gonna be a home run. And that's and that's just how works.

00:09:06 TY HENDRICKSON:

You just gotta start somewhere. Yeah, that's that. That's come up on almost every conversation. Consistency and getting out there and building relationships and trying. Right, I get comfort. Well, the hardest thing with sales is is taking it personally and it's not personal. Right. So so that you know. That's that's a big piece of it, so. Tell me a little bit more about how. You and your. Role support the growth of. The firm now now. That you've got your budget and. You want some trust and.

00:09:37 Jeremy Shen

Well, I always Want more in my budget? Let's be honest, we all want more in our we all want more in our budget. You know, I think. That's the benefit of of having time on your. I don't. Really get called in the epic meetings as much anymore. Maybe I'm not pushing hard enough, so maybe. That's back on. They were blocked on that but but I think the we've developed you know processes we have you know fairly efficient marketing operations and when you do it long enough you can prove OK, this was the spend and this was the return. And it's been helpful with things shifting a lot more digital and I think I mentioned buyer habits changing a little bit and so you see that faster, you know getting better software to track our pipelines and where things are out in the CRM. System I mean all. Of that gives you a lot better data and insight and so. I think we're we're able to now where it's it's more of you know we we have. A process we have a. Machine we run things. Through and we can we can show very easily like what is. What's what's the what's in the pipeline? When's it expected to close? What's our cost than the typical software cost per click? What's the lifetime value of the clients we acquired acquired? What's our cost per acquisition? So all these things with you. Know you don't have. All that at first starting out and so you. So the advantage of you know being somewhere for a long period of time developing and improving processes helps you get better information to more quickly and easily show. OK, this is how we're doing and and so it's interesting, I think so I have a team now it's. Not just me. So that's that's probably the biggest help and it's been fun to watch them. Everyone kind of takes on a little bit. Of a specialty and. You know, kind of versus generalist work. We're kind of getting. Away from that on my team. And so it's fun to see. Them, you know, I'm kind of coaching them a little bit to be able to coach other people. And we've we've doubled in size since I started here. And so it's really not practical for me to be able to spend time with people. And so it's fun. I have an awesome marketing manager who's. Really taken over you. Know staff and working with them on their business development and. I've, you know, primarily. Work with the partner group and so. That's been fun seeing. That get them. Get other perspectives and and you know her. Take ownership of that group and mentoring.

00:11:46 TY HENDRICKSON:

So it sounds like you guys really try to embrace this growth culture all around and you start them early. So what do you guys do to support those professionals in their business development initiatives?

00:12:00 Jeremy Shen

So this so. This is fun so. Again, I'll give a shout out to Emily. Our marketing manager here, she started this year, so we had always done and I had started some type of manager kind of BD training, but it was pretty light and you know it was really just, I just didn't have capacity to do it all for all the partners and for all the managers. And so you know, she took over it two or three years ago. You know, and, you know, she kind of got and it was. Great, you know. I think like. Given the perspective her mindset is is always so helpful. And she's like. Hey, they're they're not they they're doing the plan and they're meeting with you, but they don't. Know what the expectations are. They don't know how to sell or they do know how to sell. They don't know how to, you know, take it across the finish. Line or they don't know how to. Where to start with this? There was so. Much you know. Soft skill development with some of them. Because it's, you know, very contrast between a very new manager and like a senior manager. And so she actually developed a really nice program for, and we opened it up to supervisors and managers. Excuse me and. So it's it's much more of a collaborative kind of. We had a big opening kickoff. I think we have like 40. Some people show up for it, and so that was a day long thing where we went over from top to bottom. You know, the firm. How we go to market, you know what the process looks like for them, a little bit of BD process and we're gonna meet monthly with that group virtually for like I think 8. You know I think 8 meetings. Of the year. And so with the, you know, kind of a 20 minute kind of training presentation and then they do breakout groups and then we purposely mix them up. So you've got senior managers with maybe mid level supervisors and so they can really learn from each other because I mean we have some, we just have some incredible staff here and team. Members that are very. Good with teaching younger staff and involving them.

00:13:47 TY HENDRICKSON:

Oh, that's awesome. So they do some kind of mentoring you guys, mentoring stuff.

00:13:53 Jeremy Shen

Yeah. So we. Have like so we have formal mentors in the farm. We have like kind of circles, we call them people get connected to, but we so through our program. So the business development program we're running. So we didn't have formal mentors, but we'll put them in groups so they can interact. Cause we've we've 11 offices now and then coming out of pandemic. And so it was just, you know we have so many people that haven't ever met before. Yeah, because we've grown geographically. But as well as the. Pandemic, we couldn't do our. Normal as much in in person. Things we would do. And so it's really been a like we're, I'm excited to see them. Of it, to meet people from other offices, from other industries or service lines. And be able to connect and build those relationships because everybody wins that you know it's easier to cross out. It's easier to have your perspective and maybe you don't like what you're doing. I think you have to leave. So instead of that. Oh, I didn't know. You know, Brian does this and that's. So interesting, maybe I'll try that instead. And they love. It versus just leaving public accounting, so it's a. Very, very excited for you.

00:14:52 TY HENDRICKSON:

So you hit on something that piqued my interest. You know, you guys are focusing on education to cross sell, right? So how did that kind of start and how do you support these cross selling initiatives across current client?

00:15:07 Jeremy Shen

Yeah, so so on, on our sides from the marketing side, we do a fair amount of, I'll call it client intelligence where we're going to, we can look at clients and we can pull up data. We can ask for reports. On you know, so. It's just ERC. Right. Doing something employee retention credit. So that's easy for us to go look at. Our existing client. Base and see who would qualify for that. And we're able to, you know, share that. List with the the partner in charge of that person or relations. Owner and then. You know, target messaging target campaigns at. That, but we can do the same. Thing with valuations. We can, you know, look at ages for individual clients that are business owners and make sure they're getting invites to our evaluation, our business valuation team or webinars or seminars or content. So from the marketing side, we're able to use the data that we have. It's always not the best, you know, easiest to get to, but once you get it, it's fine. And then segment our lists and target you know the messaging to those kind of groups of. And then from the. You know from the partner side of it or the manager side of it, we we do try and you know we do like internal communication, things like that and and get them to know each other and make sure they understand what those services are. Some of the more specific ones will. Every now and then, do you know? A small presentation. To a group of, you know, our whole tax team or something. Our our audit team or guys. So they'll do presentations, they'll commingle, but it's it's all about the communication and making people feel connected. And so they understand. You know what we can do as a. Form which is which gets more challenging the bigger. You get and. The more locations you have that. Obviously gets a little more challenging.

00:16:47 TY HENDRICKSON:

I can't imagine because it is, it's a lot to know a lot of people to know and a lot of conversations to. Have, but I think that's an. Important take away? You know, using your data for these cross selling opportunities, there's so many things out. There that, you know, don't don't leverage the data that they have and they don't. Necessarily have clean data, right?

00:17:06 Jeremy Shen

Right, right. It's it's painful and it's and it's difficult and then and you know I don't you know I think you listen to these things sometimes and they're like, wow, that person's, you know, they've got it all together and they're. So efficient and perfect and. And like no one does. It's all facade right like so. We do the best we can and that's, you know. Don't ever think. Someone you know has this perfect system. Instead of, maybe they do. Good for them. But you know, you find these little wins and you find people that help you champion it. Whether it's cleaning up the data or it's adjusting your new client data intake process or whatever it might be. So again, it comes back to just starting somewhere and finding someone to help you champion that and. Don't you don't need to go at it alone.

00:17:45 TY HENDRICKSON:

I I love that I think. Small wins are so important. Because to your point, you see these perfect people that you think are perfect, right? You see the you see what you know. You think you need where you need to be, or what is, and it looks too far away, right? And I think that's that's the biggest take away. From this is. That everybody had to start somewhere. I'm sure when you came in seven years ago, you didn't have all this magical clean data and CRM and a pipeline process and you did client intake form and you know all of these things that. You know, taking that's. My 7 years to to do a lot. Of this right? And you know and.

00:18:21 Jeremy Shen

It's it's certainly it takes more than just. The the marketing team driving these initiatives, you have to have firm administration, you have to have HR, you have to have technology side of it like you have to have a lot. Of buy in for these big, especially like institutional. Changes and reality is like you're gonna ask for something like that. And you're just. You're just not gonna get it right away. Yeah, but if you can, you know, get those little wins and show them, you know, this is what we can do with. What we have? Now imagine what we can do if we all filled out our new client data sheets complete but. We all put in. The NYSE code, right? Or we all add e-mail addresses to where they're supposed to be added and stop? Another way to get around the system so. You know, and some. People never fill those.

00:19:02 TY HENDRICKSON:

That you'll never change those people. There's always going. To be a few. But again, the small wins, so this isn't a really awesome conversation. I'd love to wrap us up, you know with the the question of you know, what's the one thing you wish someone would have told you or maybe they did, you just didn't listen? But what's the one thing you wish? Somebody would have told you. When you got started in this journey.

00:19:27 Jeremy Shen

How to get answer and I immediately forgot it when you just. Asked me here should have wrote it down. You know, I I think. One of the funny things. That's someone told me this is like this is. Not this is very like practical, not very high level whatsoever and. Maybe very specific situations. But you know, and when you're when you're negotiating with someone or. You're dealing with someone. That's frustrated or whatever it is it. Is the funniest thing he said was, you know, the person who. Talks first loses.

00:19:56 TY HENDRICKSON:

That's very true.

00:19:59 Jeremy Shen

And I don't know that I'm. That competitive of a. Person to win, lose type of deal where most people are, I don't think. But I think if you you know with the part of is listening better and don't be too quick to. I remember seeing, I told that to a partner who was. I sat in on a a call with the with. The prospect where they want to talk about. And I told him I was after, like man. You just negotiated with yourself, yeah. You know you they weren't asking for it. You know as much as you were able to give them. You should just, you know, stop and wait for them to. Talk and figure out what they're saying. And and so I mean that's that's that's. Very, you know. It's very non existential or maybe inspiring. I wouldn't put that on my T-shirt, but.

00:20:37 TY HENDRICKSON:

I think that's perfect. I mean that's something that people need to know. It cracks me up because you gotta get comfortable with silence, right? You you just have to. And I I used to coach. I used to coach salespeople in a previous life in software sales, and I still remember I'd like you had sent him all these conversations and they'd give him the price and then not even 3 seconds later. But I could probably give you. A 10% discount or maybe? Even 20 / 30 work and then all of a sudden they're like giving it away for free because they. Didn't even you didn't give. Them time to say, OK, that's great. Right. So I actually love that that comment there because that is that's something that so many people struggle with, just get comfortable with silence and listen. So I think. That's a great one. Well, I really appreciate the conversation. I'm excited to see where this goes for you guys and to to follow you on your journey and I just appreciate you taking the time. To talk to us. So thank you.

00:21:34 Jeremy Shen

No, thank you, Ty. It was fun. Good luck to everyone else that comes on the podcast.

00:21:38 TY HENDRICKSON:

Pretty easy, though. You're pretty easy alright.