Practical Ideas for Growth Podcast

00:00:33 Sarah Dobek

We're we've been friends for a while. We've known each other for a while, but I'm so excited to have you. On this podcast. Sean, you have a a pretty non traditional background to getting to your accounting firm and more importantly to the CMO role. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and and your journey?

00:00:53 Sean Smith

My my path is a little unorthodox in that I came to. Schneider Downs after a 20 year career in advertising, I worked for advertising agencies. My clients were large banks. They were national drug store chains, even Major League Baseball teams. So that was really what I did. And while that sounds kind of disparate from accounting marketing, it was actually outstanding training because to have a career in advertising. What do you need? You need time management. You need project management, you need collaborative skills because you're working with writers and designers and art. Directors and you're. Working with clients who are paying for your time and. All of those gave me turned out to be a very good training ground as it related to moving into accounting marketing. So actually the reason I ended up in that was I was contacted by a a mutual friend of the CEO of Schneider Downs, who explained that Schneider Downs was looking for a director of marketing. Who would come from outside of marketing? Specifically, they didn't want to do the same thing. You know, can we bring someone in to think differently? And the timing was great. I got the right call on the right day. I was traveling too much. My kids were young and I was looking to get off the train, and so I took the interview and there's a real chemistry set and the chemistry fit with this position and he's spent it ahead 15 years later. I'm still here. So I was hired in as director of. Marketing and I did mostly primarily traditional marketing activities as you would expect and about six years after that they migrated that title to Chief Marketing Officer and that was really reflective of a couple of things. One was our team had grown from 4 to 10. It's 14 now, and also because I was taking on. More of an administrative role. Was doing more outside of marketing, more in the area of everything from change management to sitting on various committees, helping even you know, with, with human resources cross pollinating, if you will, with the IT department with the Business office. So they changed that role to Chief marketing officer and with that became a seat at the. On the operating committee, which had me getting more involved with the day-to-day operations of the firm so. You know, finding somebody in accounting marketing who's been in that position for 15 years can be. Like a Unicorn. You they we tend to be transient. So I'm really proud of that. I'm proud of the accomplishment and I'm proud of the longevity. But that's sort of how I got here. And that's a really long answer and hopefully we're not out of time.

00:03:28 Sarah Dobek

Not at all. We've got plenty of time with our listeners. I want to make a quick correction because I think what you meant to say. Is that you were doing? More strategic work, not administrative work.

00:03:38 Sean Smith

Ohh, I'm sorry. No, what I meant to say keep it. What I did want to add though is come as part of the operating committee. There is a little more of an administrative role there sitting in a lot of the meetings for the, you know, the daily operations of the firm and suddenly I'm looking at things.

00:03:48 Sarah Dobek

100%.

00:03:53 Sean Smith

That might include. Food, you know, insurance and you know, things along those lines, the types of things you might not expect to do in marketing, but then the strategic element, you know, knock on wood hopefully arrived with the director of marketing role. And I think that it opened their eyes and that's what we did in the progress we made in in those first six years led to. Hey, let's bring this guy along to the next level.

00:04:17 Sarah Dobek

Yeah, I I love it. And I'm giving you. A hard time because we're friends and. I can do that but. I you know, I think it is critically important. What you describe is, you know, part of what our mission is. We we want to help firms be more strategic and helping them understand that, you know, their some of their team members there have that that capability. You know, one of the reasons, Sean, I reached out to you to have you on our podcast was because you are in the middle or maybe have just completed a very strategic project for the firm and one that marketing would not typically be involved in. And I'm sure there's lots of others that I'm going to. Ask you to share as well. But you guys just went through and updated your client agreements, your master service agreements with all of your clients. And my understanding is you went through a very extensive effort around change management inside the organization and and you in particular were one of the contributors. And one of the people involved. In leading leading some of this.

00:05:20 Sean Smith

Yeah, it it was. Initially is outside my comfort zone and my first thought was what do you mean? I'm getting involved in and automating the engagement letter process and how we're doing all this, but it actually becomes kind of logical when you think about what that process is because in here and within there is the firm's role, you know the marketing departments role and the new business process. You know, attracting, bringing in new work. You know, the engagement letter is sort of the end process process of that of bringing in that work and so much of the client data. That comes in. That's eventually going into the engagement letter is part of the process in the in the scoping, the developing, the proposing the meeting with the negotiating, you know. And that part does cover the the marketing world, and I was intimately involved in that and setting the processes for that. Right. So I was, I was grateful for the opportunity to be part of when they said hey. You know, because I don't think anybody in the tax and audit departments were really looking at the marketing component of that. They wanted their process, their role in the process to be. But as a firm, we recognize, hey, if this is all integrated, it's kind of easier for everybody. And that rising tide lifts all votes and the other half of that, of course, and one of the reasons why I was also involved but wasn't just to. Say, here's what we. Do, but more importantly, in theory we should be the best communicators. At the firm. We should be the people that can do the best and most effective job of explaining things, whether that is. Why you should choose us to be your tax and our auditor, but that's low hanging fruit. The bigger challenge is how do you communicate to more complex messages like hey, we are changing everything you know about the process we're doing to bring to on board a new client. You know every step of the way. We are changing that and you. Know one of two things is that. Oh my God. Another thing I have to learn or is that we spent the last six months evaluating?

We can alleviate the burden on you to handle this. These administrative tasks and let you focus on what you want to be doing, which is helping our clients. And so that was turned into I kind of realize that halfway through the process. So Sarah, I mean, I I thought I was in because they don't know how we do proposals. I better go. Explain it to them. But that wasn't what this was. What it really was about was we are introducing an entirely new process, and what's fun is that's led to. To other significant rollouts that I've been involved in, and probably I've been more confident trying different things. You know we've we've used video goofy videos dressing up like superheroes and running down the halls and trying to use, you know, almost falling back on my background in advertising. How do you sell this? Almost like they're consumers. How do you how do you change mindsets, not just make them accept change, but have them embrace change or at least anticipate that it's coming. So when it arrives? They were able. To say, OK, yeah, I remember hearing about this. I should be. I should read this e-mail or. I should attend this session. So it's it's it's been a lot of fun. It was more work than I expected, and my role evolved as I got into it. Although I'll give credit to some. Of the people who pulled me in. I think they viewed. Me for that role faster than I did.

00:08:30 Sarah Dobek

Well, and I love that you're talking about this. And for so many reasons, right. And are part of the client experience and to your point, they tie in directly from the sales process, right? So there's a natural fit there, but there's an even bigger purpose right that the other side of it, I'm sure you guys were also thinking about was what's the experience on the client side, right? So how do we make it easier for people? How do we make it easier for our clients? And who's responsible for that? A lot of different answers. And who's responsible for that in accounting firms from, like, we have no idea. Nobody's in charge of this to we have dedicated roles and a mix in between like it's it's in HR. It's, it's in, you know, marketing or you know more times than not it's landing in marketing but. I think that that's important, but the other piece that you touched on and and and implied in all this is that everything that we do is change management, right? And I love that you talk about creating goofy videos and, you know, wanting them to remember something and sell it, but also just capturing their attention like we have so many things coming out as on a daily basis and so. That that engagement and that communication piece to aid and change management for whatever it is, I don't care how big or small it is. This was a pretty big initiative for you guys. It's so critically important.

00:09:45 Sean Smith

Well, and I think the other part that happens, you're you're so right. You know if change is always happening. Do you view? It as change? Or is it just? Is it like living by the railroad track? And you know, and you just kind of become immune to it or or becomes an annoyance or or elevator music and you're not paying attention to the fact that I actually. Need to know how. To do this. You know whether that is introducing double authentication to get onto the server. Whether that is our client onboarding process, whether it's. Open enrollment month and you know what we need you to get your stuff in. You know, any of those are opportunities to to communicate that you know, we are a functioning business. We have 500 people in our firm. We have, you know, we have remote employees. We didn't used to have that. We have hybrid employees. We have people, different people in on different days. So the poster in the kitchen doesn't work anymore and the emails become invisible because there's just. So many of. Them so finding different ways to to communicate. Quite frankly, you know, that's my parlor trick. That's what I like doing. I mean, that's one of those things that people, hey, get Sean here. He can help us with that and I I can't think of anything better you would want than somebody calling you to help out with something that might not. Have been why? You were hired because they know that you're good at it.

00:11:00 Sarah Dobek

Yeah, yeah, I love it. I love it when we. Use gifts you. Know building up the sort of theme. What are some of the other things, Sean, that you've done that maybe are not traditional in ways that you're contributing to your firm's growth?

00:11:16 Sean Smith

You know, I think there's two things. One is look, right now we're in a massive talent crunch. Everyone's trying to find people and it's never been more important to. To have the best and the brightest on college campuses. You know, know your. Firm and have heard of them. Heard of us before? They're interviewing and say I have a good impression. With them and I do a. Lot of public speaking. I I enjoy it and not shy. And I like doing. I like framing presentations. I like thinking. About things and Pittsburgh. We have an awful lot of colleges. Universities I could. I can be on campus at 10 of them within a 30 minute drive. And over the years, I've just sort of developed a little report and I and I guess, lectured a lot of these colleges both on sometimes on marketing and sometimes on career development. Well, you can't do much better than. Going to a. Business fraternity at you know, University of Pittsburgh now, Duquesne University. Speaking to the business fraternity and getting up talking about career development and how to have a career plan for yourself. I'm not even. How that happened, where that developed, but it's something that ended up happening. So we have an on campus presence that's not just they're recruiting fair. It's not just in the accounting class and it's sort of sense conveys the message that's sent it down to as a an active member of the business. Community in Pittsburgh and I've done it in Columbus and where we have another office and and I enjoy that and it's a chance to to apply that that type of talent. The other thing I think it's kind of fun to share and again it's going to go back to, I came to Schneider Downs as a known paid consultant for marketing. We're not a marketing firm, but a lot of our clients are that. Mid market size, they have small marketing departments in in a very short amount of time. Our shareholders started realizing you know Sean's got some pretty good insights. I wonder if he could help. Clients and sometimes it's billable, sometimes it's not Sarah, it's not moving the needle revenue wise. But I have. I've helped clients with their strategic hires for marketing. I've helped interview CMOS, I've helped write job responsibilities. I've gone on site to clients and actually facilitated focus groups whenever they. Were trying to. Do market research, whether that's what their clients. Are their employees? I have actually gone to clients and met with small marketing departments, just looked at their business plans and made suggestions to. Help them figure. Out what are some other things they could do? Because my advertising background, I'm always being sent media plans and saying is there value here? Am I overpaying my marketing costs? I even once had a client. Called me and said his son was in college, was in his third year studying marketing, was thinking about getting out of the business or getting out of that degree, was thinking about dropping out of college and just becoming a photographer. Could I please talk some sense into him? And just as a quick aside, I talked to the kid. He was so talented that I said, you know what I think you should take a shot at this. And he now shoots for National Geographic. So it wasn't what the client wanted, but he's happy with where his son's at. And again, the point is none of this is is hugely billable. In some cases, it's not billable at all. It falls under the category of favors. But these are things that I can do and. Because I have a good relationship with our partners. And shareholders, they know that they can. They can add my my talents or you know my. Knowledge. If they have a. Client that asks about it. And so if a client knows they can ask a sophisticated marketing question, maybe even off the books, to their accounting firm and get some help. It might not move the. Needle revenue wise, but what it really does is client retention and eventually that leads to future growth. I mean that's it's something I like doing. Everyone likes being told. Hey, you're smart about this. When you talk to me, but it is it's it's a way and I think whatever. Route people take to their jobs. They have skill sets that are unique, and if people know about them this way is to leverage them. Whether that's internally or externally.

00:15:11 Sarah Dobek

I I love it that you talk about giving to the clients a super fun fact and evidence was founded in part for the same reason. You know, my my partners were like. It literally came in the office one day, yelled across the bullpen, and they said, hey, you're you got a meeting on Thursday at 2:00, o'clock you're going to sell marketing services they need. Help and they've been asking about our growth. And I I I kind of like looked to my managing partner and I went, excuse me, can we have a conversation like tell me again. What I'm doing and. He's like, well, go figure out your your billable rate and you know, just be there at 2:00 o'clock on Thursday. Who you're meeting with and I'm like. OK, I have no idea what I'm doing. I've never sold anything. He wasn't coming with me. And that was the first version of Nevadas, you know, consulting under my firm. And then the second version was was formed a number of years later. But but gosh, I love that. I love that encouragement. I love the I loved the ability to give back to our clients and to your point, some of it was billable. Some of it was, and most of it was because they wanted to charge for it. So good for them for teaching you the value of what you're contributing. But I think it's awesome that you can do that and. It's such a great way. To build good trusting relationships inside your firm and build value.

00:16:34 Sean Smith

I think that's the other half that Sarah is the the partners with the engagement teams, they appreciate it. But more importantly if a clients view and what I do is of value, I do think that you know that continues to promote and enhance their reputations that I in my whole department have within the firm.

00:16:53 Sarah Dobek

Sean, we we often start things and you you took a leap, right? You said you said in our pre show prep that this was your second act. Right. Coming out of advertising and going into working an accounting firm and you know, I'm sure you didn't imagine like, you know, like I'm going to come in you. Clearly didn't come in wanting the CMO title right, even though I'm pretty sure your background would have warranted it, but my guess is the firm wasn't ready, right, and I didn't probably understand what that term would have meant and what it could have been. For them, but. What were some of your fears? Because we always. Have them and we never talk about. Were what was the little voice? What were we? Afraid of when we were. Going through this that we had to kind of face. Because I'm on a mission to also make that something, we talk about a lot like, hey, we have. Them and it's. OK, to like face our fears and be brave. Not some of these. Things you know.

00:17:47 Sean Smith

In a lot of ways it's the same thing that somebody would have a one years, five years or if they had a history in accounting and that is this, it's it's not unusual at an accounting firm for for the marketing role to be viewed as as as a department or some task managers. You know, I have some things I need and and so that's when they come to us and you know we want to be thinkers. We want to be we want to bring ideas to the party. You know, I walked in the door 20 years into, you know, full of knowledge and experience. I never had an accounting class and I came in and I was told, hey, what we want you to to think differently, but that wasn't a mandate because that came from the CEO who went out and found me. I had lots of partners who said, you know what, we've been around 50 years and we're doing pretty good. We grow 8% a year this is. What we want? That's not the way we do things. So I was very concerned about coming in and having credibility. I knew I I knew what I had done. But you can't go through the halls quoting your resume all the time. You know you have to show them quickly. About eight years ago, I did a presentation at a name conference and it was really one of the premises that I shared was my concept of ROI. And it's not. Return on investment, but rather rate of interaction. And my point is this. When you're at work, you know and people come and ask you for things and whatever they're asking you for is probably. Fairly pedestrian are expected. I need a proposal. I need a program ad. Hey, can you update my bio or I you know I? Get it too. Hey, we need golf balls. You know, those are things that are, you know, the corner of the room that's stuff we get asked to. And if you're waiting for people to come and ask you for things, that's. What you're going? To get and that's not really what I wanted to do. That's not what I want to do. I want to share ideas. I want to bring ideas to. People and so. The obligation we have as individuals is to adjust that rate of interaction and what is the ratio that you have. Of when they come to looking for you. Other things, or when you're going to them and saying hey, have a really good idea, you know, R&D tax development or tax credits are huge right now. What if we pitch a story to local media about what you're doing in the technology? Now that's pretty different, and they're not going to think of that on their own. You know, we should be thinking of those things, and that's the type of interaction you have with clients, with our our clients, the shareholders, the engagement teams that makes a difference in how they view the position. So one of the things I did when I first came on board is that I want them as quickly as possible. I think differently, but marketing is a specialty and it's going to help this firm grow. That's the only thing they really care about, right? You know, and you know. Why is this guy here? He's here to. Help us grow. So I collected magazines. Six months and I threw them all in the conference room and one by one I had shareholders and managers come down and they said find pictures and headlines. They reflect who you think Schneider Downs is, and we had them up on a wall. It's an inspiration wall. And my point is, look, I'm a branding expert, but branding is perception. So let's start by saying, what does the firm think about itself? And does that is that how we're pretty? Yourself and and it was a fun exercise. It was glue sticks and scissors were all back in kindergarten. And as a result of they, they started thinking things a little bit different. They said that's. Kind of fun. We we had a red carpet party when we launched our website before the Super Bowl. The years that I'm able to pull it off, I get an advanced. Of real of the commercials are going to show and I throw a pizza party. You know it's it's February. People are busy. Come down for lunch. We're going to look at commercials and see what commercials are. Going to come up and just. Attaching myself to marketing and really interesting thoughts and and the whole idea was just to help people understand it. That marketing group is spending their time thinking about things that are really different than what we are. We're in good hands and I think that that. So I was really scared about the fact that I didn't know the business so quickly I wanted to. To understand, I know my business and I will learn your business and I did my very first aim. I went and was in San Diego. I don't know if you're at this conference in San Diego, Sarah, but they had a work session or a a workshop on accounting vocabulary. I was the youngest. Guy in that session by 20 years. But I knew I. Needed and I was willing to eat that sandwich, you know, because I I. I sat in there and I learned, you know, what's what's audit, what's assurance, you know why. Do we use both? I needed that knowledge so you know, you know, I gave it to the officer. I made sure I invested the time into that. And that's how I addressed the fear. Simultaneously, I did share. With the firm. The fact that, uh, we are going to think differently and it's going to be for our benefit, not just for our.

00:22:28 Sarah Dobek

I love it. One I will look for my invite to that Super Bowl viewing web party. That's really the only reason I watched the Super Bowl.

00:22:36 Sean Smith

Well, any reason to watch it sometimes?

00:22:40 Sarah Dobek

Second, I love the accounting terminology. We don't talk about this enough and it's my number one piece of advice that I give to. New marketing professionals. In the accounting profession, maybe not new in their career, but you got to understand the language. I just remember the how many knocks on the door is. I remember writing copy and I remember sitting down with my managing partner at one point trying to get my head wrapped around the difference between an audit, a compilation and review. And he did. He was great. He sat down and explained it to me and he was just like nobody's ever asked me this question before and like. Well, don't you? Think our clients are? Wondering, he goes like. I don't know anything about accounting. And he goes. Most of them know. And I said, well, like should we create a piece about this? He was like, yeah, that's a good idea. So he sat down and he explained it to me and. I'm like if. I understand it. Then I can write about it. Right. And I just remember always knocking in doors and then talking and you know we we love. Acronyms in this profession, right? So like what does that acronym? What does that mean? Being able to explain all of it and. It took forever. And it still takes forever. I tell my. Team every day. And they're like, we feel like we don't understand what they do. And I'm like, it's just going to take time and just ask, ask questions and be super, super curious about everything you hear. Don't take it for granted.

00:23:56 Sean Smith

We, as you know, we as marketers, we haven't number one. We're curious #2, we'll know it all. And when you can marry those two, that's really valuable because it it is fun to learn about what you do and or put. Conversely, it's not fun not knowing about what you do. People value being asked questions. People value sharing things, and you'll learn. You know, I didn't take this job knowing what a like. Kind exchange was. You know, but when? We do a seminar. I better be. Able to explain to. People why they should come. And that's going to take learning and and that's really the and. That's the work part of. This is, you know, I'd. Rather, read box scores and see how my parents. Are doing but that. But the job and the role is to learn this industry and be able to communicate it in a. Way that people want to learn more about it.

00:24:44 Sarah Dobek

Yeah, I I love. It it, it's one of the things I love about working with accounting firms is I feel like I learned so much. About business and all of these things that I never would know anything about, I always say I know enough to be. Dangerous, but not to do it. And I could explain it, but I I I couldn't do it. There's no technical knowledge behind that so.

00:25:05 Sean Smith

I gave a presentation at our firm meeting the 1st of January 3rd, but first day back after the holidays and I said, you know, we were off. Our office was closed to prior week and Congress was upside down. You know, they were they were passing these this legislation and there were a lot of changes. Now we've got the secure act. There's a lot to. And the fact that we weren't open doesn't mean we don't have to be current. On this, in fact, while we were. Off news was happening and you know, frankly competitors were getting something on their websites. We had to hurry and that is, you know, keeping your finger on the pulse of the industry. And again, it does go back to not waiting for the head of the tax department to come down and say, hey. We should do this. You know, we're supposed to be first in the firm to go up and say there's an opportunity. What are we going to do with this?

00:25:51 Sarah Dobek

Yeah, I love that. Keeping a pulse on the profession. That's a great tip. We we talked about that too. Like subscribe to the publication. Right. Immerse yourself in what in what they're should be reading, not always reading, right, but immerse yourself in those topics so that you know enough to say, like, hey, we work with business owners in this field and this, you know, is this applicable? Right. We might be wrong. Sometimes there's plenty of times to like. No, that is nothing to do. And then I'll go, OK. Don't understand that further right because I I got something wrong right? I I missed a piece of it, right. And so you know, that helps me when I'm learning about some of those things. But you know, good percentage of the time they're. Just grateful that you're. You're thinking about. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to do that for sure.

00:26:39 Sean Smith

You know, it's interesting. Think about lease accounting, lease accounting was whatever that was six years ago and uh could be a public company and don't you know, don't think about that.

00:26:44 Sarah Dobek

Took longer than that.

00:26:47 Sean Smith

And I remember us, we, you know, we had the white Papers, you know, for the finite number of public companies we work with, we wanted to be in the game. Wanted to be able to articulate it and to look at that. Now and you know, we've got a lot of people, you know, for the last couple of years we've been upside down serving clients in this. You know, it took a long time to develop. But I you know, I remember. A meeting you know years ago saying, hey, this is coming, what are we going to do about that? And so again, that's why communication is so important because, you know, I sit on our firm's technical advisory committee. Brought it and it it seems sort of silly and I I don't always understand all the big words and acronyms but every. Now and then. They'll say you know what, Sean? We got to pay attention to this one counts going to need to know it.

And and again I think they value that I show up at.

00:27:33 Sarah Dobek

As we wrap up, do you have any final pieces of advice, practical tips or ideas that you can share? You've given us a ton already in our listeners a ton already, but any any final thoughts that you want to share?

00:27:45 Sean Smith

I think most of it's been rambling, you know, but I think that what I would say is this, I. I'm really proud of the fact they've been here 15 years and you know, I have a CMO title. I sit on the operating committee. I have the ear of our CEOs and our practice unit leaders and that's always been very important to me. But I think the thing I would say is for anybody. I don't really care about titles and roles. I've known all my career that I want.

To go to a job. Where someone says. I wonder what Sean thinks. That's at the end of the day, the greatest thing you can ever have, and that's when you have job security. That's when you get new opportunities is when you have a chance for people to say, I'd like to know what you think about. And I've always tried to communicate at center downs that that's what I would. Like and that? Did lead to positions and titles and accomplishments. I'm grateful for that, but it's which came first, the chicken or the egg can't just come in and want that to happen. It's it's not a it's not a tenure thing. It's a it's a proven thing and CMO. Titles different from director of marketing, different, different from you know marketing coordinator, you know you you grow into the role and you demonstrate your ability to grow into the role and you demonstrate your ability to create your own position and start finding your own work within your job and that's how you add value. I work at a firm well, I will not make partner and different firms have different policies and I know that and I accept that. But I also realize I don't want to leave, so it's up to me to make my job interesting. It's up to me to find challenges and to do new things, and I work in a role where they trust me and I've earned that trust to to try those new things. Whether that is strategic and marketing initiatives, whether that's launching new service lines or new something like SG or something that has market potential, there's always something new that we can reach out and do. There's always new challenges. So I you know. You you asked me earlier, you know, about the seat at the table and the seat at the table didn't come with the title. It came with the performance and I guess that would be the one thing I would say is that's the one thing we really have control over is our performance and that's communicate your goals, your ambitions and then go out there and knock it down.

00:30:03 Sarah Dobek

I love it. But you couldn't have picked a better way to end our conversation today. But love it. Love it, Sean. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your journey with us and some of your pieces of advice. We really appreciate it.

00:30:17 Sean Smith

Well, Sarah, thank you. It's it's a privilege to be on here. I enjoyed our friendship over the year and I've also really appreciated the great workshops. I've always seen you conduct aim. In in our conversations, I just have so much. Respect for what? You and your organization do, and it's nice to nice to have. A chance to chat with you.

00:30:35 Sarah Dobek

Wonderful. Thank you.