Well, First off, Sarah, I'm so excited to be on this podcast with you. Love talking about this topic. And like you said, my my career didn't start in business development. You know, I've been with Whitley, Penn for seven years now, so I've seen that the firm change and I've probably changed just as much and. Growing just as much. You know, I think a a great thing to know is I started, as you know, half executive admin and in this blended role with HR leading all of our onboarding and that kind of grew into leading our campus recruiting. I started our firms Wellness program and and now Fast forward it's. And just transitioned me into this business development role, which I love and. I think ultimately you know, I love building relationships, so it was always just using those skills, building those relationships and and and keep and moving forward in my career. So it's been, it's been a super fun ride and I've always looking forward to the next challenge and how we can continue to grow.
So talk to us a little bit about your first role within the firm and then we'll talk about how you got into business development a little bit. It's like I said before, it's not typical that we see somebody move from the HR side into business development, not unheard of, especially since, you know, one of the things you said, we preach all the time, right? You love building relationships, so. So building those with people I think was probably one of your bridges that got you where you're at, but talk to us. A little bit. About like you. Know your first seven years at Whitley Penner. Your first six years and in that. Role a little bit.
Oh my gosh, we're going to need a lot more time to all of that. But you know, really. I I I came in at the firm, we probably were about 300 people at the time. So you wear a lot of different hats, which I think you can grow so much in. I think one of the best things like I touched on was the role I came in. I supported our audit director and partner in charge of our Dallas. Market and I immediately got plugged in to building the best relationships right with people in all different levels and working with them. And I'm not an HR background, so that kind of that role was kind of a challenge in of itself. Like I said, I I didn't do a lot in the compliance. I I took on leading the onboarding. I loved working with the new hires, getting to know them, sharing them about think from the day one that Whitley, Penn, I've always just shared our Whitley. And story and who we are and. What that looks like? For the new hire in their career and. How we can all learn and grow together? There and that's just taking me into each of these roles. I have my masters in health promotion, so when I started at the firm. They they were. Looking to start a Wellness program and I. Was like, OK, great, I can do this. Like I didn't ever think that was gonna be my full time job and it never ended up being my full time job. But I got to. To do things that I was passionate about. So I think a key there is raising your hand for those opportunities and you know there's not always going to be a playbook on how you do anything. So sometimes there's a lot. Of a lot of growth and just figuring things out. So I got to start the firm's Wellness program love doing that. Like I said, love working with the new hires that also inched me into helping out with campus recruiting at the time, thought it was really fun. Never, never saw myself as let alone working in a public accounting firm. I mean any type of recruiting. I think campus recruiting is so, so different than your typical experience recruiting. So when I started doing that, I just really, really loved it, connected well with the students, building these relationships at schools with different partnerships, once again learning about more people. Internally, at the firm, I think. Internal relationships are just as important as external relationships, especially as it relates to your professional growth so Fast forward. There was the opportunity. There to then. Lead all of campus recruiting for the firm. Love doing that and and then I kind of was just ready for for the next challenge, the next role and where my career at Whitley, Penn could really take me. I I I. Didn't ever think it was going to be an experienced recruiter. I didn't see that path moving forward, so when we started having those conversations. Fortunately, I, you know, had a great team around me and leaders that would support me and kind of ask me what I wanted to do and. Thought about what I was good at and it it circles back to relationships, telling the Whitley Penn story. Being a brand ambassador for the firm, I love working on, you know, new processes and efficiencies. So that ultimately led me into business development and.
I'd like to.
Think it was a a pretty smooth transition. Into that role. But I'm 7-8 months in so still learning, still being challenged, but it's been it's been the best eight months so far.
I love it and I. Love that you just keep talking about, but our favorite word, which is relationships, because that's such. A core part of it and. You know, I can't stress enough how much we agree. Those internal relationships are critically important, especially in an organization the size of what they pen, right? Every organization, but they become. Exponentially important, there's there's efforts internally to build those and relate to people and. And to bring people along as well. And I I tell people this all the time, right. Recruiting is the like most important job in an accounting firm because that is your product. Your people are your product. At the end of the day, and not only that, it's the number one challenge in the profession right now, but the setting that aside, right, I've believed for, you know. Over 20 years, if that's important, and oddly enough, you you don't know this, Danielle. But I did something similar, right? I did a lot of campus recruiting. I did a lot of business development for my firm.
Early in my.
Career long before I started in Nevadas and I agree with you like it, I think it gives you such a good foundation on learning skill set that is completely applicable to business development.
Oh yeah, and I I mean, I think we're all recruiters, right? Like, I think our, you know, partners, leaders of the firm do just as much recruiting. We're always recruiting and I think every role you're in, it's what you make of it. So I always like to say, you know, do your what, whatever job you're in you. Go do that job that you were hired to do the best that you can and that then leads you to the next opportunities. You discover your strengths, your skill sets, how you can add value to the firm, and I think ultimately I'm always asking myself how do I continue to add value to the firm based off my strengths. And and and what I'm good at.
Here it's a smooth transition right that you made. But let's be real. There's always roadblocks that we run into whenever we're making a change or whenever we're following a passion, something that we feel like we can truly contribute to. I don't think I've ever run into a situation where there's a roadblock. What were some of the roadblocks that you ran into and how did you start to tackle those?
You know, I think it's it. It's all perspective, right. And roadblocks could even mean feeling. Feeling stuck in what you're doing. And I think that's a big one. I felt I felt like I couldn't grow anymore and I was doing myself a disservice. But firm and I was just like me and I really want to give all that I can give to this. Term, but I'm I'm feeling stuck. I want I want to be challenged so you know, I think I could sit here and talk about Rd. ball roadblocks, obstacles maybe you know. Different leadership you had or struggles with team internally or communication that I've been faced with, but I think roadblocks really lead you to those opportunities and and grow them skills you didn't know you had. So two things we always used to tell new hires and we still do to this day is to focus on attitude and effort and really those things just. And propel you all the way forward and both those come to mind. When I think of roadblocks, I feel like no matter what stage in our careers. We are in. We are always going to have roadblocks, right? No matter how far you are down the road or how early in your career you are. But it's having. Those those right tools in your toolbox to know how to work. Through them so. Who you can. Use as an. Advocate for you. Well you can. Lean into from a mentorship perspective to. Have those really, I think you've got to get vulnerable conversations. You know, we don't always have control over some of our obstacles that we're faced with, but we have control in how we respond to them. So I I've always been. You know, that choice is an action you're taking. And if you're not taking action, then growth can't happen. Choosing to take action, leaning into those roadblocks, working through them, leaning on your mentors, figuring some things out along the way. Failure can be failure can be fun, right? It's all about. How you look? At it and you're always learning from one thing to. The next so. I I I really, truly think it's perspective and knowing that without roadblocks or obstacles, you're probably not gonna have a lot. Of growth and. That's not gonna. Prepare you for what's to come or what's ahead. So I think it's leaning into it failing forward, you're not perfect and and it's building the best resources around you to kind of help you navigate through.
I love the attitude and effort. I think that's such a great. Simple thing for us to remember. About how we run into our obstacles. And that you spoke up, right? I think there's a lot of people that feel stuck and don't always know how to articulate that they want more challenges, right? I think that's really important. And and we know looking at all the studies on why people stay and happiness. That, you know, engagement has a great deal to do with do we feel challenged right in our, in our roles and do we feel like we have that opportunity to grow in there? So I absolutely love that. What about the fears, Danielle, right. Because we always have fears and we're I I'm on a personal mission. So like get people to talk about their fears because we're so afraid to talk about our fears. We're so afraid to talk about things that might be perceived as negative and that I often find, like people think we have to be super positive sometimes in our work environments. And like, it's like almost not OK to say, like I'm afraid to step out and do something. This is a little scary for me. What were some of those fears that you faced as you stepped into this business development world? Because it really was sort of like a career transition while you had some applicable skills. It's a totally different job than what you were doing before.
Oh my gosh, yes. And then I. You know, got married, had a baby, we. Did you know? It's like let's. Just change everything all at once.
That's how life works, by the way.
Sometimes that's the best. Way to do it all together but. I I really I think I once again and it it goes back to relationships. I can't say it enough, but if I didn't have those people that I could be vulnerable with and openly talk about those fears, I think it's one one I have a great husband and someone I can fully that that fully supports me and in my profession and everything I. Do so it's. It's having open communication that way, but if I didn't have those internal relationships to to lean into those people, that would have been really hard. So I think it's having folks that you can be really, really vulnerable with. And and I it goes back to. There's a quote that says don't fear failure, feel fear being in the exact same place next year as you are today. And I think about that all the time. I I probably nerd out on all that of I I want to be challenged. I you know name anything great that didn't come with beers. So like we are. We don't know what what it looks like. Always on the other side. But you have to take that. Leap to grow. So I think I feared more being bored and not challenged to be, to be honest with. I've I I have a, you know, I'm a I I played Division One soccer at the University of Oklahoma. So I've got like this true athletic competitor mindset that you know really has taken me a long way. I think I remember first getting a job after college. I was like, Oh my gosh, I've never had a job. No one is gonna hire me like. Like this student athlete this whole time and I I realized that fear turned into so like so much more positive on the other end. Right about all the other. Different strengths that were that came about being a student athlete. So I think I've always feared. I've never feared challenging myself and necessarily failing because I I don't know. I just failure comes with it and it's never the end. It's the beginning of reaching your goals, right? You fail at something, you know. OK, that that path there that that option was not the best one. Let's let's move on and move forward. So I think. And how like I guess I kind. Of built those those. Tools my toolbox to overcome those is working really really hard, right? Because you're gonna need people to give you grace along the way. But it's when you. Work hard, raise your hand. Prove to them those you know the trust, the reliability that you're going to do whatever it takes to to get the job done. I think those things really help, so that when failure comes along with it, as we're growing. And you can kind of dress. Know but those tools. Really have always helped me, but I think when you doubt yourself, you're doubting others that you that you work with, maybe that you lead on a team, so you've got to and. And trust me it's it's easier said than done. I I'm very. Vulnerable, especially in this new stage of my career, about how. How I go about doing anything I'm not. A CPA. I'm not an. But I love relationships, so I'm just going to focus more on that side of things and and less about this, less about the things that I'm not right. I can't control some of those things. I didn't go to school to be an accountant, so let's move on and let's just talk about the other strengths that I have, I think. There's a lot of power in focusing on your strengths, not necessarily always your your weaknesses, I think. We should always. Try to be better, especially at the things. We're not as good at but. Pouring more into your strengths, I guess maybe is how I combat fear a little bit.
So talk to us a little bit pouring into those strengths a little more and what were some of those things that as you're moving into business development because you acknowledge right, it's? It's tough in any knowledge based business, especially public accounting, to go and sell something that you do not know how to. Do and there's a. Sort of internal. Stigma that we can't do that if we haven't done the work right, so talk to us a little bit. How are you leveraging some of your strengths? How are you coming alongside of your people to help support them in their business development efforts?
Yeah, I think I I think honestly, uh, maybe I'm totally in left field on this, but are you know profession is changing a little bit, maybe it's post pandemic, maybe it's just how how firms kind of are growing nowadays but. My strengths are really communication, organization, relationships, efficiencies, bringing people together, kind of challenging. I I've never shy to to speak up when there's an opportunity or raised my hand when there's an opportunity. So I think using that and at the end of the day, I I love the firm. I am truly you know. Live and breathe our warm red and you know white colors. And I I love what we do and get to do for our clients and for the people of our firm. So it's one truly believing that and and kind of going about it in this. I want to build the best relationships with people and help them however I can. I I did this with campus recruiting too. I've we're not the best firm. We're not the perfect firm for for everyone and vice versa. So it's leaning into those people that want to learn more. So how I can help them? Maybe it's with our verb, or maybe it's referring them. Out to a. Smaller firm or they need, you know, a different service line outside of what we do here at Whitley, Penn. So I want to just be a true resource to. Any of the people that I meet? And and so. Sorry, I kind of got on a. Side track note on that. OK, with the question hopefully. What was it just on like my strengths for?
Do you want to do a retake on that one?
Or maybe just ask the question again.
- So, so building off your strengths, how have you used some of those strengths right in your new role? Have you been able to bridge that and leverage it a little?
Yeah, I think it's always a work in progress, right. I think it's, you know, stepping into this new role seven years into my career. So building those relationships, building that trust, showing what I'm capable of doing. Maybe it was. In a different role, but hopefully OK, she has accomplished these big goals and. And now in the new role like, you know, want to excel just as much. So it's coming back to those relationships we've built believing in Willie Penn, who we are as a firm how we can be a resource to our clients and to the people of our firm. And I I think when we truly work together, we can achieve a lot more. So I think there's a lot of growth happening within accounting firms. Right now and it's, you know, we're we're starting this, you know growth strategies, side, business development, whatever you whatever any firm calls it. But really, tapping into how can we work together as a firm to to grow and have that sustainability for our people?
So we're on a mission to help firms be more strategic in their marketing and sales. So your last comments were very, very, you know, great transition. And so we believe that marketing sales is more than just communication, right? That's that's what we think, right. The traditional MARCOM activities. Any advice that you want to leave with our listeners as we wrap up about being more strategic or you know things that you've learned along the way in your career?
Yeah, I think this is a big one for me. And you know, I I come from a PR marketing background. That was my undergrad, along with the the health and exercise science that was all over the place, but I think this is a huge one for me and I've been on our marketing team when I was with our campus recruiting role.
OK.
So I think it's a conversation. About it's part of. It's a conversation about changing culture, right? Creating what culture looks like with an emphasis on marketing and business development, communication, and how those functions. Add to the growth of the firm firms for the future, right? That's how we grow. And I so I'm obviously a big supporter of you need marketing, you need business development, you need those groups to to have the most success, right, to build up your toolbox, to build up your strengths. When you go to market to have different perspectives. And different ways of thinking for telling the story of the the Whitley Penn story is always changing. So how do we how do we? Go to market with. That so I think when we truly understand how working together, we can achieve so much more. Getting away from it being, you know, more of a competition, who brings, who brings in one, who knows who, but when? When we work together in a a much more professional way, respected and knowledgeable, that's how we grow. It looks good for not only us internally, but it looks good externally. So I really think. Having those those functions in place and pouring into them resource wise, it's it's a benefit for everyone, right? We've seen our our partners are working so, so hard these days just with the the capacity and but we want to continue to grow and bring in the best client. So how can we better be your? Source to them and help them through that. I think that's ultimately how we win and and we come. Out on top.
I love it. What I heard you say is you. Really got to work. With your partners. And it's not just. About what you think it is, right? And like, really meeting them halfway and understanding. I remember early in my career I get a lot of advice from marketing professionals. Don't do this and don't do that and they'll. View you as. As you know administrative and I always followed my instincts right and it even if it meant doing something that wasn't because it built those relationships and it built the trust and that trust enabled us to really do some things, powerful things that I'm not sure we would have been able to do if. You know, we hadn't done that.
And it's it's really, you know, it's tapping in and showing the value that you're bringing, right? I'm always telling our teams, like, we've got to continue. Maybe you gotta work a little harder to show them the value that we're bringing to them, right? They build this incredible firm, right? They they know what they're doing and they've had so much growth and success. So how do we continue to add value? To that success. We're like I said, we're not trying to compete. We're trying to work together. I just think that is it's so important.
